Curse

Matsumi · Apr 25, 2006, 12:21 AM // 00:21

That just made me think of something, wouldn't it be kind of cool if 2 teams of 8 could partner up with eachother for the purpose of clearing places out? I mean, not really for the loot of course, but just as a way to experiment a little more or something? Ah, maybe not, I don't know.

little off topic, sorry.

Serafita Kayin · Apr 25, 2006, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Yes, B/P works incredibly well.

We had it figured out before Tombs, or SF actually, we just don't say anything.

We rangers know all, but since you never let us in groups, heh...

Actually, I'll make a point in the favor of the cookie cutter groups. There are a lot of wildcat builds that do nothing. Really. Mesmers and rangers both got bad names from people who completely sideways fscked their chosen profession. I understand and accept that. There will be people out there old enough to remember some of the more miserable ones (I've seen it-it was bad) and they will have a sour taste. That said, one of those two classes played well can replace anything. They are the most versatile, but that also makes them more difficult. Not to detract from any other class, because (and this is important) anything played WELL is HARD. Even cookie cutters. Wa/Mo played properly is NOT dumbfire asleep at the wheel. Ask my little brother. He's turned it into a literal art form. Of invincibility. Echo Nuker? Try managing energy without your brain on. Heal? Major multitasking and actually giving a care.

We all play the game we wanna play. We all bring the pain. We just want to have more chances to do it with humans instead of those cookie cutter henches.

Oh, and Sidra, Orion said you were a n00blet. I'd hurt him for that. Stupid uppity henches...

Str0b0 · Apr 25, 2006, 12:40 AM // 00:40

The only thing I never understood about the B/P group is the use of orders over SS, particularly after the Orders nerf. I mean Orders works and works well, don't get me wrong I just thing SS would be a better choice as far as sheer damage output.

Phaern Majes · Apr 25, 2006, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Well lets see full barrage = 6 arrows. You should be able to get 3 (possibly 4 with tigers) of them off in the 5 seconds order is on you. So:

6 arrows * +17 damage each * 3 uses * 6 rangers = 756 damage.

If you're lucky max SS will effect maybe 5 enemies at once. Providing they don't spread out or the hexed one dies, you'd be lucky to break 500 damage. Even with echo'ing it I think you'd be hard pressed to break 500 damage. Just my opinion. I could be wrong, I don't necro. I just read the skill description of SS and based on the average amount of enemies that remained grouped close enough for SS to be effective... thats what I came up with.

Serafita Kayin · Apr 25, 2006, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Phaern, don't forget most of us barrage with Elswyths, a 5/1 vampiric.

Str0b0 · Apr 25, 2006, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Well I do run an SS and if you use a standard echoing build with AtB and just hit every enemy in the group, entirely possible with the recharge time on SS, those 5 enemies are now applying 41 damage to themselves and everyone else every time they attack. I figured it up at one point with a group of 6 and over the duration of the spell you end up dishing out like 3985 damage per monster infected. Now that is an optimistic estimate because the initial infected monster will die sooner. Still the damage output is insane. The one thing I can see that would be a problem is I've noticed that the groups in Tombs tend to stay spread out because they are tanked on a braod front. I've done tombs with SS and been highly effective at it but that was with an MM and a W/E damage sponge to draw the enemies in close and a monk providing cover enchants. Now that I think about it though just because of the broad tanking front I can see why Orders over SS.

Phaern Majes · Apr 25, 2006, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Yeah I know but he specified why orders over SS. You'd get the +5 vamp bonus regardless of which is used, if you are using a vampiric bow.

Sidra · Apr 25, 2006, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serafita Kayin

Yes, B/P works incredibly well.

We had it figured out before Tombs, or SF actually, we just don't say anything.

We rangers know all, but since you never let us in groups, heh...

Actually, I'll make a point in the favor of the cookie cutter groups. There are a lot of wildcat builds that do nothing. Really. Mesmers and rangers both got bad names from people who completely sideways fscked their chosen profession. I understand and accept that. There will be people out there old enough to remember some of the more miserable ones (I've seen it-it was bad) and they will have a sour taste. That said, one of those two classes played well can replace anything. They are the most versatile, but that also makes them more difficult. Not to detract from any other class, because (and this is important) anything played WELL is HARD. Even cookie cutters. Wa/Mo played properly is NOT dumbfire asleep at the wheel. Ask my little brother. He's turned it into a literal art form. Of invincibility. Echo Nuker? Try managing energy without your brain on. Heal? Major multitasking and actually giving a care.

We all play the game we wanna play. We all bring the pain. We just want to have more chances to do it with humans instead of those cookie cutter henches.

Oh, and Sidra, Orion said you were a n00blet. I'd hurt him for that. Stupid uppity henches...

What? Ima go duke it out with that lil' ingrate right now! I'll take him on any day... snap his staff over his... oh wait. off topic.

What I have to wonder, is why so many people make the stupid mistake of publicizing their revolutionary new builds instead of leaking it out slowly to just friends (like Seraf here has), thus ruining the build forever and usually getting it nerfed XD. I really don't see the point in things like that, because all it does is chop off the right side of people's brains (art side) and leave them sitting there just pressing the buttons that someone else told them to as they "beat the game omfg lol i roxzor with my *small letters* not */small letters* original leet *insert random build that everyone loves that can easily be outclassed* here" types of things. My only problem with cookie cutters, besides the fact that they strip the idea of flexibility and thinking-on-the-run type skills, is that they teach newbies that you MUST do this and HAVE to buy that armor in order to succeed. It takes the fun out of the game and the COM out of COMRPG when stuff like that happens. I'm just happy that my original guild kicked all of the people who began to not do anything but sit in the arenas yelling "IWAY LFG" or "R-SPIKE LFG LOL" all day. That was fun.

</end paragraph of reading hell>

SisterMercy · Apr 25, 2006, 02:36 AM // 02:36

I think it's less braggadocio and more just trying to educate folks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by felinette

... it makes me understand why players have called for a better way to form groups...

Although I tend to support a party-find feature, it makes me worry that it will be even more difficult to find a group if you're not running a cookie cutter build (hi, all you Mesmers out there!). No one would ever have to settle for a non-FotM player again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oljomo

... 3 people in a tried and tested build normally dont have to be as skilled as those in a substandard build...

A "tried and tested build" played by a poor player still results in a poor player. The build isn't really going to change that much. Throwing Spiteful Spirit on the same baddie 4 times in 30 seconds (if it's possible) is not going to be anywhere near as effective as someone who knows to spread the damage.

A cookie cutter build is an accident waiting to happen when someone doesn't understand what it is about the build that works. My Mesmer was LFG at ToA the other day when she got picked up by a 55 Monk and an SS Necro. At first, I didn't understand why they invited me or what they wanted from me. They said, "do whatever." They took me in there, we stood way back while the SS aggroed, and then bam, he was down like a daisy.

He took me in there because he'd heard that a Mesmer can "help out," but what he didn't know (I realized it the moment he went down) was that the point was so the Mesmer could block any enchantment stripping. A quick note of that beforehand would have changed everything -- but he didn't understand why it worked, he'd only been told to bring a Mesmer. (Needless to say, we couldn't rez his 55hp butt

)

Likewise, I don't know how many times I've acquiesced to groups demanding I go SS with Spinal Shivers, and then getting into battle and finding out that I have to flip over to an Icy bow so that at least ONE person in the party will be causing cold damage (the only time Shivers has any value worth the energy to cast it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moa Bird Cultist

... the whole uncommon=substandard mentality is a huge misconception...

Seconded. Cookie cutter builds are former uncommon builds that people perfected. It takes awhile to really develop an effective build combo, but that's part of the magic of doing it. When I'm on top of my game and timing it right, I'm running a necro Poisoner that could dance circles around many of the SSes out there. It's uncommon, but definitely not substandard. I've played Battery necros before there were Battery necros, played SSes before there were SSes -- didn't invent them, don't get me wrong (it's not a brag

). But experimenting is one of the most exciting parts of this game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaern Majes

All I can say is, Faction will greatly alleviate this problem (if it is a problem) for a month or so. So there ya go, you can be the one that designs these cookie builds. Problem solved

Unless you're still playing in Prophecies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

... The only thing that bugs me is when you see Blood necros down there, blood is really crap in terms of FoW imo, of course this is probably because both times the morons didn't bring BR, why go blood and not bring that!?

Heh, I went to FoW recently using BiP (the elite form of Ritual), and one Warrior who didn't know what BiP was went snake and ragequit over the fact that I didn't bring Ritual.

Blood can be extremely effective in FoW (although BiP or BR and the knowledge of how to use them is vital for this). A few months back, as an experiment, I went down there in a 3-Necro team (my N/Me and 2 N/Mo). We cleared out more of the place than I have ever done with an 8-man PuG. I was running Blood on that occasion (BiP, Well of Blood for the baddies that did leave corpses, some Mes interrupts and Energy Tap), one was MM + Prot. (Heal Area + BotM = one potent army) and one was Curses (an early build of SS also using Chilblains / Plague Sending). Our toughest opponents were the skeles (can't Well or MM on skeles). We had to have a hierarchy thing going to share corpses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Another thing that bothers me is the insinuation that people who don't want to bother running unique builds through PUG's somehow "don't get" Guild Wars...

Or the insinuation that people who don't play cookie cutter builds are n00bz and "don't get" Guild Wars.

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying, and yes, the point is to have fun. If CCing is fun, go for it. But maybe if you get bored someday, experimenting sometime down the road will invigorate the game for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serafita Kayin

... anything played WELL is HARD. Even cookie cutters...

Excellent point, and very true.

Sagius Truthbarron · Apr 25, 2006, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

Troll Harder please.

Trolling = telling the truth?

While the post you quoted might be hypocritical, that doesn't make it any less accurate.

I have alot of qaums with people running cookie cutter builds ("TANK, HEALER, NUKER ONLY!"), but asking for particular group members to carry certain skills isn't cookie cutter at all, and it certainly isn't overly demanding.

If your build doesn't work, it doesn't work. You shouldn't be expecting people to take your echo Heal Area Mo/Me.

I'de have to say that expecting people to take you as you are, to cash in your "OMG TOLERANCE PLX" card is pretty "Cookie Cutter"

Dahl · Apr 25, 2006, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Cookie cutter builds are crap.
Any good player knows that to be successful (at least in pvp) you need to be original.
I make my own builds, that work (in hoh, and against top guilds) and when skills get nerfed, mine dont even get touched, or if they do, they just get powered up cause they're underused.

Beast mastery for example... It's like having a bunch of eviscerates with extra bonuses, except that pet attacks do MORE than eviscerate. My god people, LOL.

I'll leave it at that.

Samueldg · Apr 25, 2006, 03:32 AM // 03:32

IMO if you wish to experiment.. you have a guild right? get your guild together and you all can " test your uber leet ranger/nec "ORDERS" skills"

Ive no issue with people trying stuff out and coming up with new combos...

I do however dont want to join a pug of your " good Ideas" and carry you through a mission because your build doesnt work worth a dang...

a PUG consists of a simple concept.. hence the name PICK UP GROUP... we are not there to test things with you.. we are there to achieve an end result in the quickest method possible.. thats done with "cookie-cutter builds" because simply enough they work very effectively....

Im not interested in testing the effectivness of your w/e caster.....

involve your guild in your " testing" and dont bring it into a pug..

people in a pug want a set defined list of skills and secondaries on their team because it works very well and much quicker than other BS>...

a great example is TOPK.... there is a reason for all the /mo secondaries your R/me domination ranger may be a cool idea but it isnt what the team requires...

your n/r using healing spring and tryin to do orders is a nice concept but it dont do orders half as constant and efficient as a n/mo whos got healing and can not only heal themselves but back up the monk..

simplicity works...

Vermilion · Apr 25, 2006, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

Trolling = telling the truth?

While the post you quoted might be hypocritical, that doesn't make it any less accurate.

I have alot of qaums with people running cookie cutter builds ("TANK, HEALER, NUKER ONLY!"), but asking for particular group members to carry certain skills isn't cookie cutter at all, and it certainly isn't overly demanding.

If your build doesn't work, it doesn't work. You shouldn't be expecting people to take your echo Heal Area Mo/Me.

I'de have to say that expecting people to take you as you are, to cash in your "OMG TOLERANCE PLX" card is pretty "Cookie Cutter"

And here I thought my echo mending build was so pro..

If you need a monk for a certain quest or mission and they just slapped something together and forgot RoF or another important skill, then okay. But thats a whole lot different than making a person run a very specific build because thats the only way you think it can be done.

Of course, I've been using my monk a lot more recently, because I don't forsee this happening..everyone needs a monk after all.

If someone were to say I had to run a healing only build or something, well that just wouldn't be acceptable. Okay, I just don't have the healing skills necessary..and that was all off topic. >.<

ExDeity · Apr 25, 2006, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidra

I've had people leave in the middle of missions and regroup when I told them I'd be right back after I finished saying a 2 minute Hebrew prayer honoring the Sabbath... apparently one of the wammo's convinced the group that I was bad luck XD. A-net really needs a better reporting system.

Your religion doesn't belong in guild wars, and I can see how the player may have taken offense to a comment that could have contradicted his own personal beliefs.

That is why "brb" will, in every case, suffice just as well.

To contribute to the topic, a very silly topic, to say the least, I'm pretty sure it's an open-and-shut-case. People use cookie-cutter builds because they're unfamiliar with how the game operates.

You can sit there and cry about me making assumptions about what type of player, or person, any of you may be. That's fine. The fact is, people don't use cookie-cutter builds for more than two reasons:

1. They are trying the cookie-cutter build for themselves to see if it is as effective as the general population seems to believe it is, or

2. They do not know how to formulate their own build, so they use a template someone else (likely, someONES) created because it is easier than doing some homework and coming up with a skillset of your own.

Do not knock me for telling you what type of player you are for using cookie-cutter builds. There is no defending uniformity in a video game that, as a cover on the damned box suggests, allows a plethora of different builds to choose from, and an especially higher amount than the aforementioned cookie-cutter builds labeled above.

Someone answer this for me:

Why should I have to run into the same touch-ranger build in Random Arenas every 2 rounds? Whether it's successful or not becomes rather irrelvant if EVERYONE is using it, no? How can it be fun to "succeed" at what has already been done before?

I don't even understand the concept of cookie-cutting in pvp. When a player using a cookie-cutter build wins, does he type up an email to the creator, thanking him for his victory? He certainly can't be taking credit for himself, because going online to find a build that thousands of other players are using is hardly a display of "skill".

As for bitching about not getting into groups, tough luck. We cannot change the close-mindedness of other players. We can, however, change the close-mindedness of ourselves, in using builds that we spend 10 minutes coming up with on our own to make Guild Wars a much more diverse game than it is. And that can't be too difficult, since half of the game are one primary/secondary combination of a possible 30. I think you all know which one I'm talking about.

Str0b0 · Apr 25, 2006, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Again fun is subjective. It's not something that you can quantify. Just because you don't think it is fun doesn't mean someone else doesn't. Like I said I don't care what the hell group or build I'm in or using so long as I'm killing things and getting drops. that's fun for me. It doesn't matter to me how I accomplish it. whether it is with a standard group or with a group of unique builds, whether I use a unique build of my own or whether I use a build that someone else posted.

Whether you mean to or not when you say things like that it comes off as a sort of holier than thou attitude. " I play original builds so I R better than you and I have more fun than you and I play the game more correctly than you." All bollux and all subjective. You can't say things like that with any validity to your claims whatsoever because fun and skill are not objective things. When you come up with a hard and fast scale on which to measure fun and skill let me know. Until then You are just as closed minded as the other players you spoke of.

Also Sister of Mercy I fully support experimentation in the game. Like I said I run some flat out bizarre builds, mostly solo or with guildies since it just takes too long to explain to a PUG how I'm going to function in the group and how I can benefit them by doing so. Guildies already know. The ones I build for Solo use are just to skip the PUG factor flat out. I use a really neat poison\barrage ranger that absolutely demolishes groups and makes tanks that much more effective. I've got a Warrior\Ele that can out tank a stance tank any day of the week. I use a necro mesmer mass degen build that actually makes CP worthwhile in the endgame despite what people think about it and he can solo without being a 55 just because mobs never get close enough to him to hit him before they drop dead of degen. I'm all about it. All I'm saying is there is no "right" way to play and ther is no "more fun" way to play the game and it's silly that some people want to put on airs just because they do things differently.

Muse of Shadows · Apr 25, 2006, 04:15 AM // 04:15

My views on this subject:

First, so people dont get confused as much, I want to make clear my definition of "noob".

A new player is simply someone new to the game - they can range anywhere from "expert gamer" to "noob". They simply dont have knowledge of all in the game.
A noob is someone that, although they have played through the game, know what things do, remain at their playing ability of when they first joined the game. They cannot and/or will not learn to play, or play skillfuly.
The vast majority of pugs are full of noobs, because the skilled players only play with their friends and guilds, as they dont want to deal with the noobs.

The only builds noobs can play effectivly are the "cookie-cutter" ones. I dont go into sorrows furnace often but when I do, the vast majority of players I see using the 5-man farming build believe the build is difficult to play, and because they can do it, they are skilled players. I have personaly played all but the tank for that build (for my own reasons, I will NEVER play a tank anymore). I have been board to tears while doing so. My most recent trip in, I was the healer, and I could have made do the entire trip with a fixed 75 energy - never refilling.
Noobs lack the incentive to come up with their own builds, and lack the ability to play anything but the easiest of builds. Therefore, the abundance of the cookie-cutters.

Sagius Truthbarron · Apr 25, 2006, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExDeity

Your religion doesn't belong in guild wars, and I can see how the player may have taken offense to a comment that could have contradicted his own personal beliefs.

That is why "brb" will, in every case, suffice just as well.

To contribute to the topic, a very silly topic, to say the least, I'm pretty sure it's an open-and-shut-case. People use cookie-cutter builds because they're unfamiliar with how the game operates.

You can sit there and cry about me making assumptions about what type of player, or person, any of you may be. That's fine. The fact is, people don't use cookie-cutter builds for more than two reasons:

1. They are trying the cookie-cutter build for themselves to see if it is as effective as the general population seems to believe it is, or

2. They do not know how to formulate their own build, so they use a template someone else (likely, someONES) created because it is easier than doing some homework and coming up with a skillset of your own.

Do not knock me for telling you what type of player you are for using cookie-cutter builds. There is no defending uniformity in a video game that, as a cover on the damned box suggests, allows a plethora of different builds to choose from, and an especially higher amount than the aforementioned cookie-cutter builds labeled above.

Someone answer this for me:

Why should I have to run into the same touch-ranger build in Random Arenas every 2 rounds? Whether it's successful or not becomes rather irrelvant if EVERYONE is using it, no? How can it be fun to "succeed" at what has already been done before?

I don't even understand the concept of cookie-cutting in pvp. When a player using a cookie-cutter build wins, does he type up an email to the creator, thanking him for his victory? He certainly can't be taking credit for himself, because going online to find a build that thousands of other players are using is hardly a display of "skill".

Build does not equal skill. A person can play a build well, and another person can play like they just found the build on a forum post. People can run IWAY with skill and even take and hold the Hall of Heroes, and then there are those that don't make it past the second map.

As someone was saying before, skill is subjective. I don't call a Rank 3+ balanced pug running a unique build that dies to the Zaishen more skilled than an unranked IWAY that can atleast beat the first few teams they fight.

Are soldiers who use certain military tactics less "skilled" in combat becuase they didn't develope those tactics?

I've seen some very skilled players playing some very terrible builds. I have seen some very unskilled players playing some really good builds. The unskilled players, they seldom win and hardly ever by their own merits.

ExDeity · Apr 25, 2006, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

Build does not equal skill. A person can play a build well, and another person can play like they just found the build on a forum post. People can run IWAY with skill and even take and hold the Hall of Heroes, and then there are those that don't make it past the second map.

As someone was saying before, skill is subjective. I don't call a Rank 3+ balanced pug running a unique build that dies to the Zaishen more skilled than an unranked IWAY that can atleast beat the first few teams they fight.

Are soldiers who use certain military tactics less "skilled" in combat becuase they didn't develope those tactics?

I've seen some very skilled players playing some very terrible builds. I have seen some very unskilled players playing some really good builds. The unskilled players, they seldom win and hardly ever by their own merits.

Pressing keys 1-8 on your keyboard are not the difficult aspect of this game. Strategizing, coming up with which skills are assigned to keys 1-8, is what makes the game a challenge. Fitting 8 skills into your build while competing against another player (individually or as a team, depending on the circumstance, how many players are still alive, etc.) is the challenge each player must face when designing his "build" that will challenge other players' "builds".

Guild Wars is a simple game. Str0b0 can copy and paste the words "subjective" and "objective" as many times as he likes, but it does not change the fact that when everybody uses one set of 8 skills, the game loses originality. It isn't up for dispute. The same builds facing each other over and over again do not make for a "fun" game, unless you get your fun via counter intuitive goals rivaling that of doing what you hate for a living.

One person can say he's having fun playing the same build against an identical build. While he very well may be having fun, it was not the developers' intention for 5 or 6 cookie-cutter builds to dominate the PvP experience. How can I speak for the devs? Simple. They told me how to play this game before I installed it onto my PC. They gave me as many hints as possible until I got the drift of things.

Guild Wars is a game featuring hundreds of skills for each profession. If it was designed to be the same build always facing another build, A-Net would not have given us hundreds of skills to choose from.

Mix up your builds, please. Using the same build over and over again defeats the purpose of playing a competitive game, because it is no competition to pit your touch ranger against an opponents touch ranger, cast identical spells, and pray your team has the better monk. That is not a competitive atmosphere. That is not strategy. That is hoping you draw your name (monk) out of a hat and get lucky every once in awhile.

It fascinates me that people actually defend cookie-cutter builds. What is there to defend? Is variety a bad thing, now? Perhaps all characters should look the same, one gender, one class, all performing the same actions with exactly the same statistics. It seems like this is what the fans of the cookie-cutter movement would like to see more of: repetition.

While we're at it, let's all wear the same armor, too. All players earn the same drops, wield the same weapons, and fight the same monsters. Over. And over. And over again.

If those who enjoy this trend of cookie-cutter builds would like to see some variety in the game, maybe you can start by switching up your skill bar once every milennium. Although I'm incredibly impressed that a majority of you have the know-how to google "TUCH RANGAR SPIKE!!one", maybe it's time for a break.

Sagius Truthbarron · Apr 25, 2006, 07:02 AM // 07:02

ExDeity. You have never ran an infuse monk before. Come back after you do that for about 2 hours, then tell me that playing the game is about hitting number keys 1-8. Then tell me skill has anything to do with your build.

Wrath · Apr 25, 2006, 07:21 AM // 07:21

The funny thing about cookie cutter builds in pvp is that if two exact teams fight each other the more skilled one wins. Which is what Skill>Grind is all about.

Efficiency and safety is why people use cookie cutter builds in PVE. They don't want to have to form a group with a tanking ele, because there are like 5 stance tanking warriors LFG. If I really wanted to complete a mission I would probably try to take reasonable measures to make sure the people I brought with me were going to be the most effective choices for what they were doing.

That said, running a different build can be fun because it gives you that "I'm so special" feeling. Unfortunately it leaves room for people to look Ralph Wiggum special.